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September 11, 2008

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Jonathan Bass

Hi Craig,

I also find #10 one of the more wonderful issues in the Planetary series, and was happy to be reminded of it. But I don't see Ellis and Cassaday's eviling of the Fantastic Four as a space-clearing action in response to the "elder comics" of Kirby and Lee (at least not one necessitated by a specifically Bloomian anxiety).

I'm not convinced that the Lee-Kirby influence is "almost overwhelming," that it is an essential *problem* that all Anglo-American artists working in super-hero genres feel they must negotiate if their work is to survive.

The creative relationship with Lee-Kirby seems more appreciative (or pilfering) than agonistic -- a source for ideas or tropes and a template for permutation. (If there is an agonistic relationship for Ellis, then I suspect it might be with Alan Moore [as your second paragraph seems to hint] and not with Lee-Kirby.)

One of the motives of the Planetary series, I think, is finding out what interesting fictional, symbolic, and visual things will happen if, for instance, the authors make the Fantastic Four, not foundational heroes, but the primary villains of their universe. This is a creative motive for Ellis and Cassaday, something that inspires and constrains what they make, but it is also a motive for the readers (for our involvement), as we want to see -- over all those months of delay -- what weird and clever things the authors will do with their wicked Fantastic Four.

Craig Fischer

Hi Jonathan--

When I mentioned the "anxiety of Lee/Kirby influence," I was citing Klock's argument more than my own (though I do find Dr. Klockhammer's book interesting and persuasive). I wonder: maybe the question of influence isn't an either/or question? Maybe superhero writers and artists simultaneously feel that (a.) the Lee/Kirby comics wonderful, and (b.) consequently, the bar has been set very high for their own work. Hell, I'm intimidated by Kirby, and I'm only a dimestore critic!

I'm really fascinated by your mention of an antagonistic artistic relationship between Moore and Ellis. How so? And how does PLANETARY #7--with its celebration of the Moore/Morrison British fantasy explosion--reflect this antagonism?

I think you're absolutely right, Jonathan, that one of the joys of PLANETARY was seeing the "clever" ways Ellis and Cassaday twisted the FF. My biggest disappointment with the series is that we never saw Randall Dowling in full action. At the end of #25, John Stone gives us some mighty creepy deatils about Dowling, and while I was reading #26 I kept expecting Dowling to "extend" and try to lay eggs in Snow's brain...!

Jonathan Bass

Hi, Craig.

What I was getting at was just that Ellis strikes me as being more concerned with distinguishing his own revisionary superhero work from Moore's revisionary work than he is (consciously or otherwise) with struggling to set himself apart from Kirby and Lee. Partly this is because Kirby and Lee now exist more as classical authors than as near precursors. (The compressed comics tradition, perhaps like the film tradition, seems to allow for this odd temporality.) They are models of an important foundational idiom and for many a nearly essential resource. Functionally, at least, their collaboration is for recent writers and artists more like Homer for Joyce, or at least more like Joyce than Pynchon for contemporary novelists: i.e., the possibility of being seen as just a lesser imitator of Pynchon is still a problem for fiction writers in a way that being seen as another imitator of Joyce is not (and cannot be).

On the other hand, the relation with Moore -- and the danger (for Ellis, etc.) of being seen by fans and critics as a "weak" imitator of Moore, of doing no more than a version of what Moore did with Swamp Thing, Marvelman, or the Charlton heroes, is felt as (and often really is) a danger and an artistic problem. (And this may be part of the significance of the "time-to-put-the-eighties-behind-us" theme of Planetary #7.) How to make self-conscious, revisionary superhero comics without looking too Moorish was, I think, a problem back in the 1980s and 1990s -- at least for those cartoonists who wanted to, or for reasons of employment simply had to, make that kind of comic. (I think this is not too far from at least some of what Klock argues.)

I suspect there are similar problems for those making design-oriented comics with not looking too much like an epigone of Chris Ware or those making drawing intensive, art brut comics with not looking too much like an epigone of Gray Panter (or Fort Thunder).

But I'm doing a lot of claiming here, and not much supporting; so I'll have to think this through a bit more. In the mean time, I continue to enjoy your "Week(s) of Wonderful Comics."

Cheers.

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